Wouter van Hunnik is the Head of HR at LAVA Therapeutics in Utrecht, the Netherlands. He started his career at Boer & Croon, before spending over 11 years at Philips.  

Can you talk me through how you have experienced the transition from a very large, traditional business to one that is in the scale-up phase?

Reflecting, I moved from an 80,000-plus FTE [full-time equivalent] company - active in almost every country you can think of across the globe - to a 60-people company spread out over the US and the Netherlands.

There are a couple of very interesting learnings from an HR perspective. Working with the leadership team is not that much different, as there are a lot of parallels between a large company and a small-sized company. There are team dynamics that you need to manage, there's coaching that you need to do, and you want to make sure there's a team that is fit for the future, and that can drive and push the success of either a Business Unit, a function or, in my case now, the full business by itself.

One of the other things that I really enjoy is you know everyone personally and everyone knows you. That's why - especially in these large organisations - there’s a certain level where you're more up in the clouds almost, so you're not that connected with the day-to-day anymore. You know a lot of people via Excel spreadsheets or Workday reports. Now, I know everyone, and I think that's also an added benefit for my role as HR.

What I enjoy most of all, if I compare it, is the speed in which you can take actions, but also deliver. I sometimes jokingly say what I've been able to deliver in the last year in my previous company probably would have taken me four years, and then they would have said that's awfully fast to deliver so much. But that's where you see the benefit of not being slowed down by a matrix, functions, and people you're not aware of that also have stuff to say about whatever you're driving - so that's something I really appreciate.

I also really enjoy that there's true skin in the game; either LAVA becomes a success, or it doesn't. It’s a zero-sum game to a certain extent, whereas - in a large matrix organisation - there's always another position to explore. So, you're much more, also from the HR perspective, connected to the outcome and the result of the business.

I would say what I miss are the intellectual challenges. I see that a matrix can slow you down, but I don’t have a Talent Manager, there’s no Talent Acquisition Lead, there’s no Rewards Partner, so you need to figure things out on your own. There are fewer sounding boards, which I think is an intellectual miss, and you tend to get more from the outside, but it’s different than when you’re in one team. What I miss is the dynamic of working on a truly global scale.

I’m used to working around the clock - which also has its downsides - but I love working with all the cultures across the globe. Now it’s more focused on the Netherlands and the US – although, even in LAVA, I think we employ ten-plus nationalities, just within the folks that we have.

Overall, I believe this kind of move could make an awful lot of sense for people if they need a refresh in their ways of working.

So, if it’s in your DNA to just go – less of a drive for perfection - I would wholeheartedly recommend it. If that’s not for you, then you may want to reconsider whether start-up or scale-up is the right move.

In terms of the business itself, what would you say excites you about LAVA?

Coming from a healthcare company, I got a little bit infected with working for a business that's out there for the greater good or the wellbeing of people.

In the case of LAVA, what makes it extra special is that we are in the cancer treatment domain. What we are developing is a drug that can activate your own immune system to battle cancer, making sure that there's no chemo or other intense therapies required.

Supporting, driving, being part of making that potentially a reality is something that truly energises me, and it's also something that I recognise with all my colleagues. Everyone has a passion to make a dent there and deliver something of true value to a lot of people, patients, and their families.

However, we're in the midst of clinical trials, so currently, that's also interesting. We don't have any revenues or recurring revenues, because we haven’t commercialized our product yet. We are leveraging investor capital with the conviction that our science will work and will be brought to patients. And that makes it interesting.

It also makes it that we’re on our toes on a daily basis, because we are in clinical trials for testing our product on patients, which is all heavily regulated and something we do with extreme care. But, again, that is what makes it exciting and energising for me - I’m working on the greater good.

You've been in that leadership role for the last year-and-a-half. What do you think you've personally learned to the greatest extent during that time as a leader?

I was at my previous company for 11-plus years, so you adopt a certain leadership style and a certain approach that you also see as the common standard - that's how we all roll.

What I've realised while entering into a different industry - although adjacent - and entering a different sized company is there's a lot of stuff that I integrated in my own personal leadership style, which doesn't necessarily connect with the new environment.

There’s a lot of politics and a lot of alignment taking place in previous companies, but also a couple of givens. I had to wheel myself back a couple of inches and say, “Oh, but the level of leadership in this company and the maturity is not on the level that I'm used to,” so I can go in with what I think should be done, but then nothing happens.

I had to reinvent myself a bit based on what I know, based on my normal way of working and apply a different type of leadership in this domain, where in the end scale-up is “more off the cuff”, bluntly said - a bit more opportunistic. How do you manage that? I had to tap into that sometimes and be firmer.

That also connects back to the privilege you have at a large company. There's a Chief HR Officer, there’s a Country HR Officer, there’s a Head of Rewards; all that stuff I had to do for myself. In the past, I could blame whatever else was out there in the HR matrix. But that makes it interesting, because, besides the HR Business Partner role that I was more used to, you start to play all those roles, as well.

As a simple example, I am now setting up a works council in the Netherlands. All that stuff was taken care of in my past; now, I need to make the case, because overseas these European constructs are not always well appreciated - do we really need it, etc.?

So, it did throw me back and forced me to reinvent myself to a certain extent - how do you become successful in an environment like this, building on what you’ve learnt, because there is a lot of stuff I have learnt that I do not have to reinvent? It’s much more reinventing for the environment and reinventing yourself to be successful in that environment is the biggest need.

Thinking back to the best manager that you've ever worked for, what was it about their style and personal approach that made them stand out for you?

I'm trying to adopt that style to a large extent myself, as well. I think giving people responsibility, freedom, treating them like adults. You know what to do, how you do it? That's up to you. If you need my help, I’m happy to do so. If I need me to give more guidance, I’m happy to do so.

Letting people own their own chunk of work and their results is always very important, and that’s something I’ve learnt and appreciated from one of my previous leaders. What I also find important is that people feel comfortable to speak up to me and push back. Being able to disagree, being able to voice your opinion, seeing that is taken in, is being processed is important, and it is also what I encourage in my team. But, at the end, also make a decision. We can agree, we can agree to disagree. I’m currently in a role where I need to make that call. I’ll make that call and then we’re all going to be really behind it, because that’s what we need to do.

The last thing is, get a better understanding in the end for politics. It is often said that nobody likes it, but it’s a given that it’s there – it’s everywhere. Large companies, small companies, it doesn’t really matter – and maybe, in a small company, it’s even more intense. In a matrix organisation, you can hide. In a small organisation, you cannot - so appreciating stakeholder alignment is important.

About ten years ago, I did an activity that I felt was pretty straightforward, but then a member of the team got all upset. The learning was in how you bring people along, how you manage the politics and the sensitivities in a process like that. The higher up you end up in an organisation, from a hierarchy perspective, the more important that is.

What advice could you give someone starting their HR career if they were wanting to develop and end up in a leadership role like yourself?

If I take a broader perspective, I think HR is an interesting profession, and there’s multiple ways that you can play your role within an organization. You can be more focused on design, restructuring, transformation - which is personally my trade - but there are also folks that are much more engaged on engagement surveys, HR management, or you go into a more specialised role, like executive search, recruitment or rewards, etc.

That all being said, what I am enormously grateful for is that I didn’t start my career in HR. I started it in management consulting, interim management, which gave me the opportunity to be an acting Commercial Director for a small company.

I’ve done process optimisation at large financial institutions, telecom companies, but also a big cost-cutting project at one of the more governmental institutions in the Netherlands, and I think that gives you an understanding of business. For whatever HR role you play, it’s important to understand what’s on the mind of business leaders.  

Back in my Commercial Director position, I had customers calling me on a daily basis, because they were angry about something that didn’t work well; feeling the heat of a customer is something that in HR you’re not used to, but knowing how that works, knowing how that works for customer service, etc. makes you much better and stronger as an HR professional in my view.

So, my recommendation would be to always try to find a way with whatever you do - a rotation or a couple of years where you are in a true business role - and see that as part of your development to grow an HR career further.

What is the most surprising thing that's happened in your career?

It’s more on a personal note, but - especially at my previous company - I had the privilege to travel across the globe. Besides working with colleagues from different cultures, you get to know people and they become friends.

You experience great things with them outside of the working environment. For instance, I did balloon rides over the Maasai Mara as part of a Leadership Effectiveness session. Going to Saudi Arabia and experiencing what the culture is like there and having lived for a couple of years in the US.

Next to all the professional milestones that one can achieve, there's so much gain to be had by just experiencing what life offers you in connection to a career that you choose.

That could be very important in choosing to work, for instance, for a multi-national for a couple of years, because that’s where you get that opportunity. I can only say it makes me more rounded as a person or as an individual, because you start to understand different perspectives better. It’s also good to take a distant look at your own culture.

That is how you learn and appreciate that there are things that could be better across the globe, learning how to integrate it for yourself, and then ultimately how I can become a better dad in doing so, as well – indeed, that is my most important job.

Back to HR as a discipline, I'm always intrigued by how people think it's going to evolve. Where do you see it going in the future?

I think a lot of activities - with the help of AI [artificial intelligence], robotics - can be automated and/or outsourced or done in-house at a lower cost. It also means that, across the board in a company, HR will become less visible, because simply there are fewer boots on the ground. That's a factor that's definitely going away.

I do believe that leadership teams - irrespective of where they are, large companies, small companies, functions and geography - can benefit significantly from HR support, because I’ve witnessed enough suboptimal leadership to see that this is a dire need - and maybe even more so in industries where there are a lot of subject matter experts moving into leadership positions.

At the same time, I think it also forces HR to think about where we add value, how we make sure that what we do helps whatever the customer is willing to pay for the parts that this company creates.

I know also, in my previous company, we did a conversion on succession planning and how many people ended up where they were on the succession planning sheet? 5% or so. If you think about the amount of time spent on succession planning, either succession planning doesn’t make sense, or we were doing something wrong.

Wherever I create the most value is going to be of growing importance as we progress, because that is part of the Business Partner role that you are going to play. Also, what are the interventions you have up your sleeve to do so and what interesting developments are around - for example, should we still do performance management?

But, if performance management goes, that is a significant chunk of your time back, and I think that is all well and good.

I also think that it’s important that leaders start to play their role as leaders more and more, and not look at HR to do that stuff to a certain extent. But then, again, this is where HR can add value.

For me, personally, I can see that in organizational design, restructurings and optimising your employee base, because that doesn’t remain the topic as we progress, but much more from a hands-on, strategic consultant perspective, it’s just a role that I would see us playing in the future. There’s a lot of interesting dynamics that are going to come into effect in the coming years.

Thank you to Wouter for speaking to Katie Insley, Associate Director in our HR recruitment team in the Netherlands.

Views and opinions contained within our Executive Interviews are those of the interviewee and not views shared by EMEA Recruitment.