Gerard Sieben is the CFO & Management Board Member at Unibail-Rodamco-Westfield (URW) in Amsterdam. He has been with the business for over 13 years, having previously held roles such as Project Manager Finance and Finance Director.

What do you see as the biggest challenges for a) your business, and b) your own role over the next 12 months?

I think the biggest challenge for us in retail real estate is reinventing our future. A lot of people no longer believe in retail real estate. We are not the flavour of the month, so to say, for investors. I think we as URW proved that there is a reason to exist for large shopping malls. For destinations beyond shopping, like Disney, where you can spend the day or at least part of the day. But, of course, we need to find a way to monetize that, and to make it profitable and to grow again, as we have done over the past years, and also to prove to the markets that we are capable of doing so.

I think that that's the biggest challenge for us - to prove to the market that we have a reason of existence and that we will find new lines of income in the shopping centres we have.

What does that mean for your own role over the next of 12 months? What challenges do you see there?

The challenge is probably to stop reporting overly on the past and start dashboarding, being a partner to the business and support future decisions with data. With the pandemic in mind, we have to find a way to benchmark our past results, but also going forward with new lines of business - we need to show how this can be profitable and how these growth models can work, and I think that that's more a general challenge for CFOs at this time.

As financial people, we tend to compare everything with the past and report on the past. Considering the past year or whatever, that’s too late. The world is turning so fast and you have to look at the data of today and define what you can and change from working in the past towards looking at the future. We need projects based on the future and I think that that's one of the biggest challenges for me personally.

I know you have been office working during this time, however, how do you feel the workplace will have changed as we emerge from the global pandemic?

There is, of course, differences between individual people working. If I look at my team, if I look at our organization, we have a group of very professional people who know what they need to do and what they need to deliver, and this does not really relate to a certain space. So, it's fine for them to work from home. It's also fine for them to work at times where they think it's most convenient – no fixed office times. They can start at 11:00 and finish at 20:00 in the evening if they want to, or the opposite.

Companies who employ large groups of people will find themselves requiring less space, because there will be more flexibility. As for how a typical office will look like in the future, I think that's a challenge, because I’m not sure if working hours and large office spaces are the best solution. I think the office in the future will be much more a place where people gather, where they find out about new things, about important things, where they talk about challenges they have. It will be more for social interaction, which benefits the work as well, but also with the liberty to decide whether they want to come or not. Employees needed to be more efficient working from home; this requires more flexibility and I think, in the end, it will require less office space for the larger companies.

What have you learnt as a leader over the past 12 months?

I think you need to be open to changes and adapt easily. Specifically, for myself, what has struck me was the fact that, in the past, we used to rely on newspapers, internet and television for news. Today, I sometimes skip the news or the papers or whatever because I don't know what is the truth. You find so much information that you can't really judge what is right and what not.

As a leader, of course you have to manage your team to go through all this. To motivate your people to not worry too much, and to also accept what is and isn’t in their control. To keep the focus on the future and keep the positive mind on it, to create a working environment with time for non-work related chit-chat as well. So, flexibility I think is very important.

What does your organisation do to raise awareness around mental health and wellbeing?

We have set up a program called URW Academy, which provides trainings and courses related to work. Early last year, when the crisis started, we also introduced a number of trainings on wellbeing, on how to relax, how to organize your life, etc.

For example, when you have a Teams meeting and you don't necessarily need to be on screen, you could also go out and have a walk and listen in. There are plenty of these meetings where you just sit and listen and you need to participate, however, you need to understand what has been told and it's very easy to go out, to put in your ear buds and to just listen while you're having a walk outside.

What I got back off of my team members is that this was perceived very well and they liked it. Also, the wellbeing trainings received good feedback. I have a few people in my team who live in the centre of Amsterdam in a tiny apartment, and I can imagine you want to go out every once in a while.

How does your company work to retain high potential employees?

What we try to do is have frequent conversations with our people. Talk about what their aspirations are. How they see their future and how this aligns with what we have to offer as a company, in terms of training, in terms of next steps and possibly the ambitions to work abroad. Create an open communication, trust between manager and employee in which there are no (or little) surprises and next steps can be anticipated.

What risks have you taken throughout your career and how did they help you get to the level you are at?

I come from a totally different background, and I think the red line through my career, in my life, has always been that I'm not too worried about the far future; my horizon spans three to four years, then typically I want to do something new.

And I don't really care what that's going to mean - I'm open to all sorts of new things and their risks. At one stage in my career, I resigned from a permanent role to become self-employed without having an assignment yet. With the family relying on me as provider, it was a stressful period. However, I found a nice new position and I ended up working as a self-employed contractor for 12 years.

I tend to believe this was based on what I did, what I performed and the reliability I showed to people to solve problems, to come with unexpected solutions and things like that. I think that, in a way, worked for me and also the fact that I didn't really worry about the future. Some people are so worried about tomorrow that they that they don't live today – very philosophical, but I think it’s true.

What would you say was your secret to building a network or becoming that known person that people came to, because you were reliable, and you delivered and had innovative solutions?

I was quite early with having a profile on LinkedIn and, at that time, many people said, “What does it bring me?”, “Why should I do a LinkedIn profile?”, “I don't get it”, “I don't see the benefit of it”.
And I would explain that networking is not about needing something now or tomorrow. Networking is about getting to know people, doing things for people and, one day, it will get back to you. You don't know by whom, you don't know when, but it will happen. It’s about giving and not thinking about what you get back for it. And I think that's been my philosophy; if I can help someone, I would do so.

How did you plan out your career development path?

After quitting my bachelor’s, I spent a few years working in many different jobs. After a few years, I realized for me there's more in life than being a bartender or a taxi driver. At this point, some people get stuck and say, “Oh, but I don't have an education” and “I'm too old” and “I will never find another job”. I just took it on and evolved and started learning again, and accepted my first job as a Financial Controller without any experience, and that's 23 years ago.

It's not really that I plan ahead for three or four years and that I am constantly thinking about the next steps. It's more that I take on a new challenge and then, after a few years, you get very familiar to the processes and you end up doing the same thing over again, and that's where I have my scope for three or four years. The first year is exciting. You have to set up things. The second year you see that there's still improvements possible to what you did the first year and then, if everything goes right the third year, you start benefiting from what you did before that and after that, it gets routine and it gets easy.

And that's where I tend to lose my interest. As I told a colleague a few hours ago, for me, an exciting day is a day where things go wrong, where I have to make sure that I can fix things. If everything goes right, I'm bored, it's not that exciting. Sometimes, it's nice to have an easy day or an easy week. But, after a few weeks, I think of what could go wrong, because I'm happy to solve things and that's where I thrive.

Does that come from having a bit of a contractor mentality, maybe coming in to solve a problem and work on a particular project?

Yeah, I guess it's two-fold. In my early career, I was employed, but also for these time spans, I think my longest job was four years. Even as a contractor, after being contracted for URW for ten years, it was not one job. It was four or five assignments. So yes, I think it's related to that mindset that you want to solve things, that you want to take on new challenges and that I'm not too worried about new challenges.

What advice would you give to aspiring leaders?

The best piece of advice is that you have to listen to your people, to your colleagues. Be open and make sure that you don't get into this tunnel where you get too convinced of yourself. I think that happens to leaders when they are too long in the same space.

Accept criticism and understand that sometimes your spot has changed and that you have to evolve, or that it's no longer your spot. If you're a change manager and you get into a stable situation, then it's time to move on, because then it's no longer your thing. A manager who has to work in a stable environment has different skills to one that manages a lot of changes, and the other way around.

While we continue to face the realities of COVID-19, how have you seen your approach to Finance evolve.

Of course, cash is very important at the moment. In the past, we had the luxury that it was very easy to finance ourselves. And then it was very easy to approach banks to get financing. And we see that times have changed and that it's more difficult. I think that's an important one.

I think there's a lot of support. Government support for companies, which, at some stage, will end. And they have to support themselves again, but they also have to think about the consequences of today's support; if it's taxes, for example, that they have to be paid somewhere in the end.

I think Finance is always a bit conscious of a company and they have to create a lot of awareness of this and to make sure that all the people are not too negative, in periods where you need positivity -   but the other way around as well - that they are a bit more realistic in times where they are very positive and, for one company, it gives new challenges and exciting new opportunities. You have to adapt.

Who is the most inspiring person in business for you and why? Are you going to say Max Verstappen?

I was really thinking about him, because he is so focused and so convinced of his own abilities. If you look at him, he is so calm, especially under the pressure he was under. And, at some stage in his final race of 2021, I thought that was it, he is 12 seconds behind, there's no way he's going to win. And then something happens, it all turns, and in the last few seconds, he becomes world champion.

And then we all know this story about his father, who tried to be a Formula One driver, and the guy is so focused, he was successful at a very young age. He’s achieved an awful lot. It's almost like a superpower, but still the focus the guy has and the way a lot of people can relate with him, although they will never be drivers like him. To stay on your goal and be focussed, that’s really inspiring – he’s an inspiring guy, even though he’s only 24-years-old!

And then, finally - this is a just-for-fun question - do you have any hidden talents?

I used to have a drum kit and, although I never played in a band, I played at home for quite a long time, and I think I am still pretty good. I told my kids that whenever I would have an office big enough to fit a drum kit in, then I would for sure buy a new one.

A drummer is always a bit in the background. He's not in the front like the singer, but he’s always a bit in the back, supporting the rest of the band and making sure that they are on the same beat, at the same pace, and that they all stick in the same rhythm, and I think that's in alignment with the role of a CFO.

Thank you to Gerard for speaking to Georgia Wright, Associate Director in our Finance & Accountancy recruitment team in the Netherlands.

Views and opinions contained within our Executive Interviews are those of the interviewee and not views shared by EMEA Recruitment.